Margaret

[mybackpages]

I wanted to reinvigorate this a bit, mostly because I've been cruising around different M*A*S*H forums in the last few days and stumbled onto the H/M 'shipper site and an LJ community devoted to H/M, which got my juices regarding C/M going. In the H/M community, a poster mentioned how they loved the kiss between H/M at the end of GFA, but wished they'd said something about meeting up. It's been a while since I've seen GFA, but if I remember correctly, they didn't say anything to each other after they kissed, no? That seems like a big clue to me.

If I stretch it so far as to say perhaps there was a bit of sexual tension between H/M (and sexual tension certainly doesn't mean love, which I think was more evident on the C/M side, with sexual tension thrown in) then that kiss was like the final expression of it, which would indicate why it was so long. They knew this would be it, that they had nowhere to go from there. It makes sense. Now, if they really were going to put those two together, they would've mentioned something about them meeting up at some point.

And yet...which two people do we know will be meeting up at the 8063rd and who knows where, from there? Charles and Margaret, of course. I'm not Sherlock Holmes, but I know something obvious when I see it.

Also, look how often Margaret would deny Hawkeye when he flirted with her. I mean, he flirted with everyone. I think he loved her, on a level. If you take out the flirting and the OOC that was Comrades In Arms, they had more of a brother/sister relationship.

Also, people talk about how Margaret argues with Charles. On the whole, when you look at it (minus a few episodes), she really doesn't unleash her full fury on him like she doesn't hesitate to with Hawkeye. For instance, with "Baby, It's Cold Outside," though annoyed at him wanting his gloves back, she was really quite tame about it. Basically just some eye rolls and such. And when he asked for her forgiveness: "Of course."

Just interesting, I think.

[Kay4077]

Some excellent points, 'pages. Hawkeye and Margaret definitely didn't say anything (at any point!) about meeting up after the war. (Only Hawkeye and BJ discussed that, but let's not go there...). Alan Alda himself has dismissed the 'CIA' episode as leading to anything meaningful between the two of them - he described their reactions as "realising they'd made the biggest mistake of their lives".
In GFA, Margaret was not supposed to be going off in the jeep by herself - Charles would have been travelling with her if she hadn't had so much luggage. And I do wonder what might have happened if ONLY Hawkeye hadn't interrupted their (temporary) farewell.

[mybackpages]

Though we see a change in Charles from season to season, it amazes me when you see how much he changed just over the course of GFA. It's hard to know where the two of them would've ended up. I like to think they could've been happy together postwar, but again, I'm not sure how much Charles would/could suppress his upbringing and the influence it would exert on his decision about whom to marry. I guess that's the fun of speculation.

Something interesting, I thought, was in the episode with Martine, he remarks to her something along the lines of, "You're as special/important to me as any woman I've ever known."

I guess I find it interesting because generally, if someone's in love with just one person, they're going to say, "You're more important to me than any woman I've ever known." excluding female relatives, of course. So what that hints at, to me, is he's possibly not just in love with one person, i.e. has feelings for Margaret. Which I feel are clear anyway.

[Kay4077]

mybackpages said:

Something interesting, I thought, was in the episode with Martine, he remarks to her something along the lines of, "You're as special/important to me as any woman I've ever known."

... So what that hints at, to me, is he's possibly not just in love with one person, i.e. has feelings for Margaret. Which I feel are clear anyway.

Except that, in that episode (Foreign Affairs), poor old Margaret doesn't get a look-in once Charles and Martine start gazing into each others eyes (and she's smart enough to realise it - hence she makes her excuses and leaves).

[mybackpages]

Oh, quite true. Actually, it'd be interesting to see an ATC fic perhaps having Margaret confront Charles about his attraction to Martine. Mostly, I guess, because I'm a sucker for angst.

You know, we talk about how Charles might've felt about Margaret, and most of the time I think his feelings regarding her are pretty clear. But I wonder how Margaret felt about Charles? She often flirted with him. When you think about it, even though she could be annoyed with him, she'd still flirt with him. Margaret often got annoyed with Hawkeye, yet I can't think of any time when she really flirted with him. Even CIA wasn't "flirting" it was just impulsive.

Margaret seems to be able to forgive Charles his faults more than Hawkeye, a lot of the time.

[mybackpages]

Hate to post like this again, when I made the last post as well, but I wanted to point out a little something which is again interesting for the H/M perspective, I think. In the episode "Stars and Stripes" when Margaret's pissed off with Scully and at the end she's lamenting with Hawkeye, she mentions that future men will need to pass a few qualifications. They'd have to be 20% her dad, 10% Scully, 10% Hawkeye, 5% (I think) Frank Burns, and 1% her Donald Penobscott.

Now, what's interesting here is that while she's saying this, she had a falling out with Scully, yet she says 10% Scully and 10% Hawkeye. So even though she's vexed, she still puts Hawkeye on par with Scully, essentially. Also, this takes place after CIA. If she truly had any authentically romantic feelings (beyond maybe just slight sexual tension) towards Hawkeye, I don't see why she would've shied away from saying 50% Hawkeye or more. I mean, they already did...the deed, what's to be shy about? Unless, of course, she doesn't have romantic inclinations towards Hawkeye. In which case, she would only allot him 10%. Makes sense. And further proves that they're really nothing beyond very good friends.

/stream-of-consciousness over

[stanford9]

Kay, to answer your query way up at the top of page 2, I believe my little treatise on the C/M ship now resides solely with Jenn. I gave her a copy and told her to do what she will with it. I may have it archived on a back-up CD somewhere. I might dig it out, while looking for other writings I've stored there (eg, stories I hadn't finished that I pulled off various archive sites for working on at some unknown time.)

[Jenna]

sg1niner said:

Kay, to answer your query way up at the top of page 2, I believe my little treatise on the C/M ship now resides solely with Jenn. I gave her a copy and told her to do what she will with it.

I'm putting the article about the C/M ship on to the CM shippers website and the site should be online very soon.

[mybackpages]

I had the chance to rewatch GFA just recently, so with it being fresh in my mind, I wanted to point out a few interesting (to me, anyway) points.

Firstly, when Charles and Margaret are in the Swamp and Margaret's excited about possibly going to Belgium for the job with NATO and Charles requests the return of Browning's book, Margaret says something very interesting before she exits, "I'll get it right back to you, Charles. Being sentimental can lead you to do things that you
later regret."

Clearly, when she says that, she must be thinking of how she'd "helped" him get his job at Boston Mercy and she's now regretting it because of his attitude. But, notice she says "being sentimental" so that implies she did it because she felt sentimental, and that sentimentality is tied into the Browning book, which is inherently romantic. Quite interesting.

I also thought it interesting that while they were fighting in OR, Charles makes mention of how he doesn't want people running his life and that's what she's allowing her father to do. And so what is her decision at the end? To do what she wants. Can't help but wonder if, despite their arguing, what Charles said had some bearing on that decision.

Lastly, I noticed an interesting parallel. BJ and Hawkeye, best friends, actually were fighting/tense towards each other for a lot of this episode. They really only got chummy again when they were all eating dinner together. And so who are the other two people in this episode tense with each other? Charles and Margaret. There's such an interesting parallel, I think, despite the fact that their relationship is completely different from BJ and Hawkeye's (who are just best friends).

It's interesting that, even though Charles gave her the book and kissed her hand, there was still no real finality to his goodbye for Margaret. I can't help but think that was intentional, since they were meeting up at the 8063rd.

[Kay4077]

mybackpages said:

It's interesting that, even though Charles gave her the book and kissed her hand, there was still no real finality to his goodbye for Margaret. I can't help but think that was intentional, since they were meeting up at the 8063rd.

That's something the H/M-ers always (conveniently) overlook - that Charles and Margaret were going to the 8063rd together, and SHOULD have even been in the same jeep, if only Margaret hadn't had so much luggage. So of course their 'farewell' isn't going to be as 'final' as Hawkeye and Margaret's.
I still like to wonder what might have happened though if only The Wretched Harlequin hadn't interrupted them!

[mybackpages]

I think H/M 'shippers have selective memory. Quite true; what could've happened if their goodbye wasn't interrupted? The way he kissed her hand, and her subsequent look of utter enchantment, leads me to believe it could've gotten serious. Also, I hadn't noticed this before, but after she says goodbye to BJ, BJ goes to stand next to Charles, puts his hand on Charles' shoulder, and Charles actually looks quite upset, and he's watching Margaret the whole time. Interesting.

With Charles' emphasis on societal regard, it's highly likely he wouldn't have married Margaret (though in my head I like to believe he could've eventually loved her enough to look past it), but don't you think that there's a good chance Charles and Margaret would've at least kept in touch via letters or phone calls? Especially considering they had the connection through Margaret's "Uncle Bob," which was a convenient way to leave an open ending for the two of them.

[Kay4077]

mybackpages said:

With Charles' emphasis on societal regard, it's highly likely he wouldn't have married Margaret (though in my head I like to believe he could've eventually loved her enough to look past it), but don't you think that there's a good chance Charles and Margaret would've at least kept in touch via letters or phone calls? Especially considering they had the connection through Margaret's "Uncle Bob," which was a convenient way to leave an open ending for the two of them.

As I said previously, I think the society thing was important to Charles when he first joined MASH, but I think the whole social standing thing became less important to him by the end.
What DID matter to him - as it did to most people in that era, it's not a 'class' thing - was more to do with morals. I don't think Martine came from a great social background, but I think he'd have overlooked that if she hadn't had such a casual (for those days) attitude to sex. And yes, I know he was quite happy to fall into bed with her himself but, as he said, "This isn't Boston."

So poor ol' Margaret would realistically have had no chance on the marriage front (but it's still fun to read fics that make it work!)

[mybackpages]

Yeah, I definitely agree with you there. I also meant to make reference to your previous point, but sleeplessness begets forgetfulness and incoherency. I wonder if Charles would've ultimately been happy with whomever he did end up with. I like to think that on some level, he did love/was in love with Margaret, but as you say, wouldn't/couldn't be with her because of the moral issue. It's still interesting to consider what might've been in his head, regardless, which is something I'm currently in exploring in a new fic.

And while I think it likely that Charles wouldn't have pursued Margaret outside of Korea, I could definitely see Margaret falling for Charles, which does make me feel bad for poor 'ol Margaret. Shame. Well, as long as she didn't end up with Hawkeye...

[Jerseygirl]

I don't think Charles' place in society affects him as much as people are led to believe. May I bring up a few interesting points?

1. War changes people. I for one don't find it so ludicrous that Charles could have married Margaret some day. Compare the Charles from "Fade Out, Fade In" to the Charles in "Sons and Bowlers".

2. In how many episodes did you hear Charles lamenting about all the different men his sister Honoria had been involved with? This was in the 50's too.

3. Do you all remember the episode "The Party"? In it, Peg writes to BJ that everyone cleared the dance floor when Mr. & Mrs. Winchester did the Charleston with Radar's Mom & Uncle Ed. Sounds like the Winchesters weren't such a snobby family after all. I see no reason why Charles couldn't arrive home with Margaret on his arm and introduce her as his fiancee.

[mybackpages]

Hmm...interesting points indeed. Charles definitely changed; that's a point I feel I constantly have to defend to an alarming majority of M*A*S*H fans, sadly. He had even changed a bit by Season 7, so when you get to Seasons 10 and 11, there's really a big change.

I had forgotten about "The Party" and that's a good point to make. We don't really know how Charles' parents were. They may have been high society and placed an importance on standing to a point. We don't really know. We do know that Charles' father was rather aloof towards Charles but that certainly doesn't mean he was a generally condescending person to everyone. It may be that standing was more important to Charles than his parents and if we consider your point, Jerseygirl, the importance of standing, to Charles, had started to fade really.

I just find it interesting that as much as the writers could sometimes shove H/M down our throats (with really no evidence to support the attraction), they seemed to be hinting at a C/M relationship in GFA, with the connection between the two of them via Margaret's "Uncle Bob". It's interesting to consider anyway. And as I said, I could definitely see Margaret falling in love with Charles and wanting to be with him.